EP13: Healing Chronic Pain Beyond the Physical

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When someone says "it's all in your head," they're dismissing real pain, but what if we could reclaim that phrase as empowering instead? 

Physical therapist and author Stacey Roberts joins the conversation to explore the hidden layers of chronic pain, revealing why conventional approaches often fall short and how a holistic, personalized view can finally bring relief. 

This episode bridges the gap between physical symptoms and emotional experience, offering hope for anyone who's tried everything and still hurts.

Stacey takes us through:

—Why pain in your brain is real and can be changed through neuroplasticity

—The immediate physiological relief that happens when chronic pain is acknowledged as real

—How systemic inflammation, fascia, and gut health contribute to widespread pain conditions

—Why emotional experiences get stored in muscles and create persistent trigger points

—The power of nervous system regulation in recovery and growth

—How combining multiple modalities addresses the root causes of chronic pain

And so much more!

Stacey Roberts, PT, RN, MSN, has over 30 years of experience helping patients live pain-free while achieving their health goals. She is a Holistic Master’s Prepared Registered Nurse, a Musculoskeletal Specialist, a Pelvic and Sexual Health Physiotherapist, and a Functional Medicine Specialist. 

Stacey owns the New You Health and Wellness Practice in Wauwatosa, Wisconsin, combining cutting-edge technology, advanced manual therapy, and functional medicine to help patients attain optimal health.  Many of her patients, including herself, have avoided surgery, drugs, and injections. She is the author of the forthcoming book, The Pain Free Formula:  A Holistic Approach to Finally Getting Rid of Joint Pain Without Surgery, Drugs, or Injections (February 2025). Discover more at https://newyouhealthandwellness.com

Connect with Aimee:

Instagram: @aimeetakaya 

Facebook: Aimee Takaya 

Learn more about Aimee Takaya, Hanna Somatic Education, and The Radiance Program at⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠www.freeyoursoma.com⁠⁠⁠.⁠⁠

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A: Hey there listener, do you or someone you know struggle with chronic pain? Maybe an ever-growing accumulation of tension in your joints, in your muscles that are pressing on nerves or causing other challenges in your everyday life. 

Today I'm going to be talking with Stacey Roberts, the author of the Pain-Free Formula, Solving the Puzzle of Muscle and Joint Pain Without Surgery and Medications or Injections. We are going to explore some of the somatic elements of pain and how we can find relief. So stay tuned. 

Intro: Every day there is a forgetting and every moment there is the possibility of remembering. Remembering who you truly are, awakening to your body, to the inner world, to the experience of being alive. Here is where you find the beauty, the joy, and here is where you free your soma. I'm your host, Aimee Takaya. I'm here to help you move from pain to power, from tension to expansion, and ultimately from fear to love. 

A: Hi Stacey, nice to finally meet you. 

S: Nice to finally meet you too, Aimee. Thank you so much for having me on. 

A: Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited for this conversation. You know, I think that when we talk about pain, and especially when it's medicalized, meaning it's some kind of medical professional talking about pain, there's kind of this story that, you know, it's physical or it's mental, right? And there's actually a lot that intermingles there. There's a lot that overlaps and also, you know, our emotions and our way that we perceive things absolutely has an impact, right? 

And that's something I explore a lot in my work. But I wanted to ask you a question to get started, which is that when we hear this phrase that it's psychosomatic, or that it's all in your head when it comes to your pain, in what way does that kind of disempower a person? And what might be a different approach to that conversation about pain that is in your head? Sure. 

S: It's a great question because that happens to so many people, especially with systemic issues that conventional medicine can't really put their finger on and say that this is your problem. When the person's feeling terrible, but they're like, all your tests are normal. So it's, you know, like you said, all on your head. I think a little bit of that is shifting to, okay, it's all in my head, maybe in my brain. 

And because the science is showing that the brain changes over time when you're dealing with chronic pain. So hopefully, probably not yet, but hopefully that's going to become an empowering statement. You know, it's all in my head. 

I can do something about it, right? Because meaning my brain impacts my body and the mind-body connection. But previous to that, you know, and even, you know, sometimes now when people say it's all in your head, people think you're making it up. 

So, you know, rewind 30 some years when I was a physical therapist starting out and people weren't getting better. And we couldn't figure out why they said they were doing everything they were supposed to do. We just assumed they weren't doing their exercise. We assumed they weren't taking what they're supposed to take. 

We assume that, you know, either they're malingering if it's a worker's comp injury or, you know, something that they're not doing, right? And then, you know, having the conversation of its own, you had to completely disempower that patient because they're like, well, I guess it's not real. 

And that couldn't be the furthest from the truth. So as I matured through the profession, from a physiological standpoint, I've been, my book, The Pain Free Form, that talks about all the other reasons why your pain may not be going away from a physiological aspect. And the last chapter on the brain and pain, we talk about how you can be accountable, you can be motivated. When you do find out there are things that you can do to change the wiring in your brain to impact your health and your vitality and decrease pain. Excellent. 

A: Yes, I couldn't agree more. Like the rewiring and this idea that, you know, things being in our head aren't real. It's so, like you said, so far from the truth because when we're talking about thought processes or emotions or even just, you know, experience that is a state of being, it comes with a corresponding muscle pattern. 

It comes with a corresponding neural, you know, neural pathways and certain hormones and things being emitted. And, you know, when we do a test and we take a test on, you know, certain things, it's only measuring like right now today in so many ways. 

Like a lot of times, you know, you need to see someone over a period of time to be actually able to measure, you know, what's going on with them day in and day out. Otherwise, you're just, you know, your findings are based on their individual reporting. Right. So when you have patients who come in who are very visibly distressed about their pain, how do you think that their perception and their distress about their pain impacts their pain? Sure. 

S: So now science has shown that that distress creates a physiological response, which then could actually enhance their pain even more. So if your cortisol levels are significantly high, you can be more hypersensitive to feeling pain. So cortisol is a stress hormone. So if you're distressed about pain, you're thinking about it all the time. There's even research that shows that, you know, chronic pain is linked to depression or does depression cause chronic pain? 

Where, you know, there's a whole cycle in there in regards to it. So we know that there's a mind-body connection. We know that a person in distress physiologically changes both in the body and the brain. And that, like you said, can enhance the pain that they're experiencing. 

So what does, what have we always been taught to or not always, I would say probably in the last two decades have been taught to, okay, I'll reach for that pill to take away the pain. But we really want to look at that pain as a messenger. What is the pain trying to pay attention to? What is the underlying issue? 

But if we keep covering it up and we keep ignoring it, then we put ourselves at risk of developing more pain, more injury and not getting better, especially when those medications then wear off and the pain escalates, right? So it's a vicious cycle that people get into when they're distressed about their pain. 

A: Right. Yes. Absolutely. And I think that as a practitioner, you know, and I know that you probably work with other people who are, you know, training with you, you're very experienced, right? But as a practitioner, it's, it's our position and I feel to provide a space of validation for people's feelings about what's going on, you know, to, to help them feel like, oh, this is, this is real, like what you're experiencing is real and has an impact. And let's get in touch with that, right? Because so much of that vicious cycle that you're referring to gets reinforced when we are denying our experience in some way, when we are denying our feelings, when we are denying the impact of whatever's been going on. 

And could you say a little bit about that? Like what happens for a person sitting there in distress when you just completely validate their experience? What do you, what kind of shift do you see in them in that moment when they're feeling heard and seen by you? 

S: It's, it's a true physiological shift that we see across the table, you know, their body is able to relax, they're able to sit back, they, you know, their face changes, you know, they may, they may smile, they may lean in, they just feel, you can see the relief that is just going through their system. And a lot of times we do talk about, especially people who have chronic pain, that a lot of that pain really is in the brain, but they are truly feeling it in the body, right? 

So we want to help them understand that what they're feeling is real. There are things that are happening in the brain that we could even measure if we did like a functional MRI today. So people finally go, oh, okay, but now the question is, what can I do about it? 

Right. So how do we rewire our brain? How do we tap into this neuroplasticity that all of us have? We think, you know, it was done at six years old, but no, I mean, we, we have a neuroplasticity in our brain for all of our lives. So just trying to educate people on that, that gives them relief when they feel validated. But then the next question is, okay, what do I do next? 

A: Right. The how, how does this, how does this shift? And I think that what I observed by reading on your website is that you really personalize things to people and you use a variety of different modalities and tools. Can you speak to why it's important to like have a like a wide range of different things that you might bring to a person? 

S: Yeah, people are so multifaceted, right? So we're, we're made up not just of our, you know, human flesh, but, you know, our emotions, our physiology. And we want to utilize things that can help support the healing process. So for somebody that may be our software technology, they come in, they've had chronic knee pain forever. We utilize software technology on their knee. It accelerates their healing. 

It decreases the localized inflammation. And that may be all they need, maybe a little bit of advanced physical therapy with some hands on work. But then the next person that comes in that's been dealing with chronic pain, you know, may have had a traumatic event in their life. You know, could have been a car accident, could have been, you know, something that happened when their child, all sorts of things then start to feed into it. So that person needs a much more multifaceted approach. Sure, they may have localized pain, but then they also might have systemic pain. 

So we want to do things to address the systemic issue. Maybe it's, you know, addressing their hormones, maybe it's addressing their gut health. There is now evidence that shows those things can also improve pain. And then the other aspect is, you know, we, I will refer out to, you know, cognitive behavioral therapist, energy workers, whatever that patient is comfortable with. I'm willing to help support them down with their journey to addressing mind, body, as well as the physiological aspect of what they're dealing with. 

A: Wonderful. And I think that you're, you just kind of said it very well, like different people are going to be attracted to different kinds of therapeutic work. You know, and so there may be someone who, you know, the cognitive behavioral thing is like right at that kind of mental plane that they're comfortable in. 

But an energy worker might be a little bit outside the box for them, but someone else might really be distrustful of a cognitive behavioral therapist, but they are comfortable with Reiki or some kind of more energetic, you know, subtle work. So I think that, you know, the approach that you're taking makes a lot of sense in terms of meeting the individual in whatever space that they're willing to step into in their own healing. 

You know, let's talk about some kind of specific issues that kind of get labeled as, you know, all in your head. And I'd love to hear your take on something safe, for example, like fibromyalgia, right, which is a nervous system challenge, right, that shows up in a very physical way for people, right. But that is this kind of like question mark. What do we do about that? You know, how much experience do you have with like something like fibromyalgia? 

S: Oh gosh, I treated fibromyalgia for decades. And again, back in the 90s, after I graduated, it was considered. And I always felt really uncomfortable with this. But I would always talk to doctors and they're like, oh, we have this person with fibromyalgia. They're seeing a psychiatrist. We put them on all these mental health meds and da-da-da. And I always felt uncomfortable with the fact that we're just discounting the person because we can't figure out where their pain is coming from. So because we can't figure it out in the past, somehow their fault. Like something's wrong with them. 

So I was always very incongruent with the thought process. But we would do our physical therapy and we'd help them get transient relief typically. But then we started to realize in the research that the fascia is all over the body. It has its own neural network. It really is something that when there's systemic inflammation, either from eating, their eating plan, their gut health, hormone levels, thyroid issues, adrenal issues, all those things can, in some people, significantly affect that part of the body. 

And then there may be some biomechanical, the kind of things the way they move. One of my first fibromyalgia patients that we worked on, her fascia, she was in the symphony. She was a top-notch percussionist, sought out all around the world and just fought through her pain every day as she was performing. And she taught me a lot about what these patients go through when they have that type of systemic issue. 

And again, we were able to help her manage it back then, but not really able to help her get rid of it because we just didn't know that there's a holistic view that we need to take for people that have fibromyalgia and those more systemic issues. 

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When you relax your muscles, you not only move better and regulate your nervous system, but you also free yourself from the grip the past has over your body. So you can live with freedom, confidence, and enjoy your life now. How does that sound? Join me, Aimee Takaya, and discover what my clients are raving about at YouCanFreeYourSoma.com. 

A: Right, things you mentioned like gut health and stuff like that, that really, you know, the research is more and more coming out, but it's been, you know, it's still very recent. It's still a lot of new information that we didn't have before, right? About the way that our microbiome and also our epigenetic structure, right? Shifts and changes are experienced, including things like pain or a sense of well-being, right? It's all interconnected with these other systems in our body. Yeah, beautifully said. 

So like for somebody who, you know, has been experiencing something like fibromyalgia, right? And they're starting to get in touch with that this is like a very layered experience, right? And you touched on this a little bit. What kind of intersection do you feel that like, you know, someone who's gone through a traumatic childhood and then they have this sensitivity in their nervous system? 

You know, do you see that as like their body's way of handling certain things that they've gone through? Like how do you personally like view the intelligence of something like fibromyalgia? Like how is that an intelligent thing that their body's doing? 

S: Absolutely, so their body with trauma, any type of trauma, whether it's a physical or emotional, our body tries to protect us, right? So physical trauma of, you know, you'll sprain your ankle or you hurt your knee. The rest of your body tries to keep you from not putting pressure on that. So that's what pain signals, right? Don't do this because it's gonna hurt. 

We wanna protect this and let it heal. So our body has that natural mechanism, but when it's more of a psychological or mental health issue from, you know, psychological trauma or other physical trauma that the person hasn't been able to talk about or release, it is, and there's not good research to say this specifically, but there's general research to support that we hold onto some of those kind of emotional experiences in our body. And again, early on in my career, I was very lucky to work with a mentor who, you know, kind of taught me that part of it. 

And I remember we were working on a patient who, you know, at that time they were like, oh, she's kind of hypersensitive and has these issues and we were doing some body work with our manual therapy, we call it. And we hit one area and she just started crying, just uncontrollably crying when we hit an area on her trapezius muscle and just started to have this huge release of emotion. And we talked about after, you know, all these memories and things started flooding. And it was a, I won't say a common experience for her to have that every day, but occasionally when she'd have body work, she would have that. 

And I was like, wow, this is amazing. Then I got into pelvic health. So in pelvic health issues, not everyone who has pelvic health issues has sexual trauma, but there are some people who have had sexual trauma and end up developing pelvic health issues. And those men or women can have some significant trigger points, again, in the pelvis that's now trying to, have been trying to protect itself, you know, the sexual organs, things like that, muscles that help to support them. 

And the tension and from the fear, you know, can be held in that area over a period of time. So helping them release that is a really cathartic experience many times. So again, that's what a team of people is there for, to support them, you know, mentally we're trained and how to support when you do public health, you're trained in how to support somebody who's been through trauma and trauma-informed care to help them through that process. Because it is, as you said, multi-layered. 

A: Yeah, beautiful. Well, I love that you're talking about and acknowledging these things, you know, and not afraid to kind of like go there with a person. If that's what the person is, you know, is experiencing. 

I think that's so important to creating a sense of safety that allows a person to actually heal. You know, a lot of the, you know, approaches that I have experienced and taken and the work that I do is within the umbrella of somatics, which I think, you know, there has been some research, but not enough research in my opinion on different somatic techniques, right? 

That helped you actually, you know, in a more, I guess you could say like psycho-emotional sense, like get in touch with the thoughts and feelings that are stored in our muscles. Because, you know, if you take, for example, you know, a traumatic experience, right, that someone has gone through, while they're experiencing that, whatever they're experiencing, even if it's a physical experience, like I use this example a lot with my clients, like a car accident, you know, you're not just like this empty vessel traveling in a car. 

You're having thoughts and feelings and emotions. You're in a certain time of your life when that car accident takes place. And if you have whiplash in your head, flings forward, there were certain, you know, pathways and stress hormones and all kinds of things that might have been going on before the moment of impact. But then the moment of impact happens and now those things get associated or linked together, you know, the divorce that you were going through, the relationship that was ending, the challenges you were having with, you know, another member of your family or emotional issues that you were going through, are now part of the, you know, moment that your head flings forward. 

They're linked now. And so, you know, it might be 10 years later that you're going, oh, I have neck problems, right? But I got that treated on a physical level, but what if there was a lingering pathway from those previous experiences, right? 

This is where it's kind of getting hypothetical. But we don't have the research to prove this, but in my personal experience with clients, like there's a lot of things that get linked together at one point in someone's experience. And then the unwinding of them, as you said, is a process. And it's a process that has to be addressed from multiple angles, because it's not just the flinging of their head forward. Exactly. 

S: And a lot of people forget that, or haven't been really allowed to make the connection that our thoughts and our feelings are basically physiological molecules in our body, right? So we have this kind of separate thing of, oh, how can our thoughts affect our, you know, body? Well, it's part of physiology. And I often explain to patients, you know, when you get butterflies in your stomach, what is that from? 

It's your thoughts that are thinking something that's creating a hormone cascade, that change in your body, that's creating this adrenaline, that's causing you to feel a physiological physical response. So that's nothing different from that versus something that's a little bit more in-depth, or, you know, from trauma, or even a physical accident, like you're saying. So hope patients and the public is starting to see that connection. And I'm hoping that I can help continue that growth. 

A: Beautiful. No, I think what you're doing sounds very innovative and very needed. You know, I was wondering maybe, I know as we're bringing this conversation to a close, you know, what would you like to see change in the way that, say, physical therapists are trained, right? If you can think about the conventional training, maybe you have people come in who went through conventional training and now they're coming to you. You know, what are the things that you would want to see shifted and changed in the way that people are being trained? 

S: When I came out of school, it was, you know, we had the basics of what we learned and it was a very in-depth program and very intense. And then you get out and you really learn the rest of what you need to do in order to be a good therapist. And we did a lot of hands-on work. That was important. Manual therapy was extremely important. 

In the last decade or a decade and a half, I've seen a shift to new grads being afraid to put their hands on people. They give the people an exercise program and say, okay, these are your exercises you're supposed to do. They're trying to manage three or four people in an hour because their reimbursement for insurance has gone down. So now they have to see more people. They don't have as much one-on-one care. So then they're ending up not having that, you know, again, one-on-one time too, like we talked about in the beginning to validate this person's experience. You know, they just become a, do these exercises, you know, here and then go do them at home. And then the patient's like, well, I can do this at home. 

This is easy. You know, why am I wasting my time or money here? So now I hope that we get a shift that goes back to the patient is important, getting your hands on the patient is important and helping them, you know, validate their experience and really thinking about where is this pain coming from? I see people that have tried everything. 

Those are the people that come to me. People have tried everything, it hasn't worked. And we've got to really strip things away to see, you know, what we can treat to really make a shift and a difference. And hands-on manual therapy is a significant part of that. So I hope that more and more PTs, as you know, I do my mentoring and other PTs do mentoring help to bring that back, that that can be a big differentiator for my colleagues, you know, out there, we're for our profession. 

A: And, you know, I think that the hands-on aspect is extremely valuable. I mean, that's a part of my practice is what I do is hands-on somatic body work with people. And it really goes to another level that a lot of people need. They need that safe, gentle, therapeutic kind of touch that is attending to their body's needs. It actually shows them in a way how to attend to their own needs when they do their exercises, when they do their other self-care practices to receive that. So I think that's great. 

That's dead on. And, you know, unfortunately in my field as well, since the pandemic, a lot of the training has gone online. And so there's less and less people in my field being trained in the body work aspect and it's turning more into self-practice, which isn't a bad thing, but it's just missing that human element that I think is really essential in a person like you said, feeling validated. Like actually feeling that because this person is giving them their attentive, you know, physical connection, right? And that is so important to someone's healing process. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you. This has been such a valuable conversation. I'm so excited about what you're doing. 

S: I feel like we can talk forever, so we'll have to do this again sometime. It'll be great. Absolutely. 

A: Yes. Well, and for those of you listening, check out the book, The Pain-Free Formula, Solving the Puzzle of Muscle and Joint Pain without surgery, medications or injections, especially if you're someone who has tried everything, right? And many people I work with same thing. They've tried everything and now they're like, okay, let's go outside the box, right? 

S: Beautiful. The book is out in the middle of March, so if they want to be alerted as to when that's out, they can contact us at info at newyuhelphanwellness.com and we'll put them on a list to be the first to know when the book is ready. Fantastic. 

A: Thank you so much for your time. And yeah, thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise with us. Thank you, Aimee. It was such a pleasure to meet you. 

A: Hey there, friends. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. I would love to hear your thoughts. Follow me on Instagram at AimeeTakaya and send me a DM about this episode. I'd like to thank you for being part of this Somatic Revolution and if you'd like to support the podcast and help more people learn about somatics, consider leaving a review or a rating. 

A: And finally, if you'd like to have the experience of relief in your tight hips or back and learn to understand what your body is really saying to you, visit youcanfreeyoursoma.com. I can't wait to share with you what is truly possible. Bye for now. you