EP105- What Your Body Image Is Trying to Tell You, with Deb Schachter

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What if your negative body image isn't the villain in your story but actually a messenger trying to help you? 

In today’s episode, Aimee sits down with Deb Schachter, one of Boston's leading clinicians in body image and eating disorder recovery, to explore a revolutionary approach to working with body image that goes far beyond body positivity. 

Deb takes us through:

- How body image is multi-dimensional; it holds our entire story, past experiences, and present moment feelings

- The "rotary" effect: How we quickly jump into "fix-it" mode without addressing what triggered the spike

- Shape-shifting patterns: How early family dynamics shape our patterns of emotional and physical adaptation

- Why negative body image may be trying to protect or guide us

- Three core muscles to develop: Mindful awareness, curiosity, and compassion toward our body image experiences

And so much more!

Deb is recognized as one of Boston’s leading clinicians in the areas of body image and eating disorder recovery. She has dedicated her 30-year career to helping people unpack their body’s story and the wisdom it has to offer. She brings authenticity, curiosity, and compassion to her work and emphasizes the profound power that connection has in the healing process. 

She integrates playfulness and mindfulness into her workshops, individual and group work, and is inspired by how unique the growth process is for each of us. She believes wholeheartedly that we all have the ability to find our inner alignment and has seen how her confidence in her clients translates into change. Blending together her East Coast sensibility and her West Coast spirit, Deb has developed a language and an approach that is accessible to all.

Connect with Deb:

Instagram: @bodyimageinsideout 

https://bodyimageinsideout.com/  

Get the book!

Body Image Inside Out: https://debschachterlicsw.com/ 

Connect with Aimee:

Instagram: @aimeetakaya 

Facebook: Aimee Takaya 

Learn more about Aimee Takaya, Hanna Somatic Education, and The Radiance Program at⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠www.freeyoursoma.com⁠⁠⁠.⁠⁠

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A: Hey there, listener. How often throughout your day are you judging or assessing, or criticizing your own physical body? A lot of us have a body image that exists in our mind that might be radically different from what our body actually is at the end of the day. If there was another way to experience your body and your body image, what might that way be? 

Maybe more present with every experience that you're having, both physically and psychologically in relation to your body and your body image. Today, I have Deb Schachter, recognized as one of Boston's leading clinicians in the area of body image and eating disorder recovery. And we are going to share a powerful conversation with you about what is possible when we start to interact with the thoughts, feelings and sensations in our body in a new way. So stay tuned. 

A: Every day, there is a forgetting, and every moment there is the possibility of remembering. Remembering who you truly are, awakening to your body, to the inner world, to the experience of being alive. Here is where you find the beauty, the joy, and here is where you free your Soma. I'm your host, Aimee Takaya. I'm here to help you move from pain to power, from tension to expansion, and ultimately from fear to love. 

Hi Deb, I'm so glad to have you on the show today. 

D: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. 

A: Yeah, no. So when I took a look at the book that you've written with your business partner, and I was pretty impressed right away with just the introduction and the kind of self led journey that both of you have been on through navigating this topic, you know, and I obviously you've been doing this for a long time, right? 

And then there's a new dimension, it almost seems that you're like embarking on over the last few years in in helping people navigate this issue. So maybe a great question to start is, how would you define body image? And what do you think are some of the biggest challenges that people or maybe even women in our society struggle with when it comes to this idea of our body image? 

D: Oh, that's my one of my favorite questions. So, you know, I think most of us are taught or to socialize to think of body image as something that's one dimensional, right? So it might be a mirror, it might be a picture, you know, it might be something we see on a screen. And, you know, really, we think of body image as a multi dimensional thing, that there are so many different things that and aspects of our lives that actually inform what we see. 

Because we're sort of, again, taught that body image is how we look. And we really believe that body image holds our entire story and whatever's both in our past experiences and really what's even happening in the present moment. So they given the opportunity to start to actually interact with your body image, and actually be in dialogue with it, there's all this information that's possible to really access, as opposed to just, this is an image, this is me end of story. 

A: Right. Well, and it's also so much based on our perception, as you mentioned, like, that's based on our past conditioning, but also how we're feeling in the present moment. Like, have you ever like taken a picture of yourself in the moment you look at it, you're like, Oh, I look terrible. And then six months later, you look at the exact same picture, and you're like, Oh, I look cute that day. Right? 

D: Absolutely. And we always talk about how over the course of the day, we can feel so different. We can get dressed in the morning and feel like I'm kind of doing okay. 

And then something happens. And we and our body image tanks, we've the way we see ourselves totally shifts. And that's really what we feel so passionate about is what makes those spikes and valleys happen, and really starting to learn to track when our body image gets louder and why and really getting curious about all the different things that inform how we see ourselves. 

A: Beautiful. While I'd love to get into the why in a moment, I have one more question kind of the preface here, which is that, you know, what are some of the things we do when our body image is, you know, wavering throughout the day, what would be some behaviors that people could relate to that may be in relation to how they're perceiving their body image? 

D: Meaning sort of the patterns that they may get into in response to that typical patterns. Great question. So we have a really what we actually created this image, we've been running workshops for 20 plus years. And this was one of our first exercises, which is what we call the rotary, which is actually starting to track when we start to have a spike in body image, all the ways that are what our brain starts to do, and how quickly we go from, you know, I don't feel great in these pants, to what am I going to do about it? 

And that there's this whole sort of, we're from Boston. So this idea of this rotary that you can kind of go round and round that might be like, you know, diet, exercise, change, you know, buy other pants, you know, all these different ways. But they're usually oriented around something that needs to be fixed, something in me that needs to be changed. 

And what we've loved about over time using the rotary is really what happens before we get on the rotary is where the money is, right? That that's something has incited us to really start to question our worth, our how we're being experienced, how we look, all those things. So really starting to track what are the triggers to these louder moments? And and we even, when are they quieter? 

You know, right? Like, that may be who we're around, that may be when we're doing certain things, you know, really starting to learn that our body image is really a messenger and telling us about what's happening inside us. And so starting to really notice, and that's really a big part of our sort of tracking processes to notice when the judgment goes up and when we start to move into this sort of fix it mindset. 

A: Yeah, I mean, I have noticed in myself that the times in my life when I was like, more, I guess, controlling about my body, like controlling about what I ate, controlling about my exercise, it came at a point where like, I really needed to feel like a sense of control in my life that I wasn't experiencing. And so controlling my body was like a way in for me to feel like I had power when I felt powerless. 

D: Totally, totally. And that's, you know, part of what we talk about is the negative body image in its own way is really a we say either a hero or a heroine, that it's trying to help, that we really don't want to see it as this villain in the story, but that it's actually trying to step in when there's something else in our life that feels messy or overwhelming or scary. And it's a way to try and take whatever we're feeling and channel it into if I do this with my body, I will feel something different. And then of course, our culture gives us the message that that's an awesome plan. 

And of course, that's what's going to happen. So really seeing it is something that, you know, that is in an attempt to help us feel less or more of something. And then we get the message that that's that's definitely the way for change. So it's really compelling. It's really compelling. 

A: Did you know that your muscles are holding on to thoughts, memories and feelings? If you have a tight neck or back, you're not just getting old, you're experiencing a buildup of tension from the life you've lived. Most people don't know this, but there is a part of your brain that can reverse and prevent chronic tension. When you relax your muscles, you not only move better and regulate your nervous system, but you also free yourself from the grip the past has over your body. So you can live with freedom, confidence and enjoy your life now. How does that sound? 

Join me, Amy Takaya and discover what my clients are raving about at youcanfreeyoursoma.com. Yeah. And then, you know, we were talking a little bit before the recording here about, you know, different ways of kind of viewing this same issue and working with this issue. And, you know, I mentioned that one of the things I noted was that I felt like this wasn't just like a body positivity kind of angle. 

Like when I was reading and reading through the book, it was felt like you were going much deeper, much more into the multi-dimensional layers that are there. And, you know, I feel like in my early years, I was kind of a victim of some spiritual bypassing within myself, you know, where I was ignoring like, you know, all of the things that I didn't feel good about in my life or my body. And I was just trying to fake it till I make it or just jump on the body positivity train. And, you know, for me, that actually looked like I was an artist's model. Right. And I got naked in front of people 

D: for like three years of my life so that I could just show everybody this is my body, this is how it is and like, I'm okay with it. You know, and during that time, I would get comments from people because and some people know this story if they've listened to it like way back at the beginning of this podcast, I share a story about going through early onset puberty. And so when I was like eight, my body like exploded and I have stretch marks all over my lower abdomen and hips, you know, and like look like I've had four kids, you know, and that was that was that way when I was like 22, you know, and I was figure modeling. 

And so how I was out there kind of almost challenging people to like see my stretch marks and like, do you, you know, but still find me beautiful, still find me incredible, you know, because I wanted to feel that way myself. But the part that was sort of like, kind of kept showing up that was showing me that that that alone that body positivity or just like proving it to the world, you know, through holding myself a certain way or putting myself on this display as this, you know, beautiful woman wasn't quite like sinking in fully. 

It wasn't quite working was I would have women, mostly women actually comment on my stretch marks comment on my stomach when I was figure modeling. And it was things like, so how many kids do you have? They would ask or they would tell me about some kind of treatment or some kind of cream that they had used that had made that better. 

And when they would say that there was a part of me that was really injured by that comment that felt like offended and felt like angry and almost felt like as another woman, you should know better than to like comment on this, you know, especially as I'm being like brave enough to put myself out there, right? But then at the same time, I was like, not really present with how to actually express that or defend myself or say anything. So I was just kind of like too cool about it. I was just kind of like, well, I'm fine with how I look. It's, you know, that's your problem if you're not fine with how I look. 

But that wasn't totally authentic, right? That was like me still trying to like cover up the hurt and the, you know, frustration that I had with my own body and not actually like going into it or working with it or responding to those comments in a way that actually, you know, protected me or let them know that maybe that wasn't like the kindest thing to say, you know, totally, totally. Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking a couple of things. 

I mean, one is, you know, I think we think so much about this idea of being in relationship with our body image, that that's like this whole new idea, like almost like going a couple of therapy, you know, with your body image. And so I guess I was just feeling so much compassion for your, the scars are about part of your story, right? 

And sure, there might be grief about that. There might be, you know, anything, but more how am I in relationship to my scars? How am I in really, you know, what do they mean to me? Whether, you know, again, whether there's something to grieve or celebrate or feel compassion for what that was like as an eight year old, there's so much in there to be understood and honored. And that also takes a certain amount of, I mean, I totally hear you on the bypassing, I'm also thinking at 22, that's, I would have done the same thing, right? 

Like, that was the only way I knew it's a great way to do it is sort of like, here I am, take it or leave it, you know, and what I'm hearing, obviously, is as you've evolved to sort of be more aware of maybe what, how at that point you were taking care of yourself and your, the vulnerability may be associated with that early experience. 

And it sounds like you really understand now that that is a really important part of your story and being in relationship to different parts of our body as they, you know, whatever they represent, whether it's our grandma's thighs or our, you know, whatever, our nose that everyone always made comments about or whatever, you know, how do we, how do we really be in relationship with those messages we've taken in? 

We talk a lot about mirroring and really the impact both whether it's about how we look or who we are and how that can really become something to, to really get more curious about is how we've been mirrored back and in the way these women were mirroring you, right? I mean, whatever that meant about their own freaking stretch marks and, you know, what exactly, you know, what that meant to them. 

A: They were probably, I mean, I kind of realized this at the time they were probably saying that because they couldn't maybe imagine themselves if they, you know, maybe they did have those stretch marks. They couldn't imagine just getting up and being naked in front of everybody with that going on. 

D: It was like, totally, totally. And they may have gotten the message, whatever it was about, whether it was their teeth or their eyelashes or whatever, you know, something needs to be fixed. So they were coming in kind of wanting to help you feel better when that may not have been what you needed to hear at all. Right. 

A: Yeah. And, you know, as you mentioned, there were lots of emotions. And also, as I've worked with my body somatically, you know, over the years and continued to work with my body as a somatic educator, there's, there's stories, there's like unconscious layers of emotion that were a huge part of like, you know, that area of my body and the stretch marks. And as you mentioned them as scars, I think that's really, you know, a beautiful way to kind of look at it too is that, you know, scar tissue has a certain level of sensitivity in it. 

You know, it feels different on your body. And then when it's being touched, you know, and so I've found that, you know, that area of my body is more sensitive to the touch than other areas of my body for better or worse, you know, because it is, it has scars, you know, and how am I in relationship to that? Am I, you know, sensitive to that space, that wounding, that previous wounding of my past self? Am I sensitive to that? 

Or am I kind of like aggressively trying to cover it up or fix it or ignore it or detach from it? You know, and I've done both throughout my life, but I'm at the point where connecting, you know, and doing my best to connect with it, like is, is where it's at, you know, because, and this is something I love also about like what you're doing in your work is that the negative stuff doesn't stop coming up. It's not like we just go check mark, spotting it. 

D: Well, it's funny, actually, when we first submitted the book for the, to the publisher, they wanted us to do a sub, a subtitle. And they kept saying, how it's something like healing body image, right? You know, and we, we both were like, you don't heal body image, body image is not a done deal. And we, you know, we kept saying, we understand body image healing sounds like a weird thing, but it's a verb. 

It's something that you're, it's a practice, just like yoga or meditation. And, you know, for all the reasons we know, right, bodies are constantly in a state of change. All our, you know, what's happening around us is in a constant state of change and our moods and our emotions and our sensations are always moving. So that's why it needs to be so much more of an ongoing dialogue. That's the good news in a way, even though it, you know, it asks more of us, but it actually gives us a chance to be more connected to ourselves. Right. 

A: Well, and, and as, as you've mentioned here, with the ever changing, ever morphine, somatic experience, including the, you know, actual physical tissues of our body shifting and changing over the week, over the day, over, you know, whether we've eaten a heavy meal or whether we've been, you know, running around all day and haven't eaten anything, you know, like those things all have an effect on how our physical body feels in the moment. 

And so much of my life I spent wanting to get to some place with my body, that my body would just be good and okay now and just like somehow press pause and like hold myself in just this one state. And I think a lot of us struggle with that, especially on a psycho and emotional level of wanting to, oh, I'm feeling this way. I'm feeling upset or I'm feeling angry or I'm feeling, you know, and then we judge ourselves. I'm being petty. I shouldn't be upset right now, kind of gaslight ourselves and wish that we could somehow freeze in some sort of state of being that is more ideal. 

And that's just not how it is. And I think that being able to interact with how it actually is and be in that dynamic relationship with ourselves is what you're describing in this way that you're working with body image, you know, specifically as a ever changing ever morphing part of our consciousness. 

D: Totally, totally. And it's part of why we do talk about this sort of a sense of, you know, we talk a lot about the authentic self and also just this idea of how do we learn about these parts of ourselves that have gotten maybe, you know, whether it's cut off or housed in a particular story, you know, like, oh, if my blah blah, we're more blah blah, I would, you know, feel freer in the world. 

I would. So we talk a lot about, we talk about jealousy, we talk about, you know, sort of the idealization of certain kinds of bodies that, you know, both we've obviously been taught in our culture, but also what does that tell us about our story and what we imagine if I had long legs, I could do these things I would have in my family, I would have been more like my parents or whatever it is, right? I mean, there are all these other wishes that get kind of hooked into these stories about our bodies. And one of the biggest ahas from the book was how connected that is to relationships. 

That so much of our body image experience is really about what's happening, either happened or happening in our current relationships. So really starting to track that has been so cool. And that's kind of the newest discovery, like I said, it was the chapter we didn't know existed. And we were writing the chapter on the kind of chapter four is how, you our body holds our story. 

And in the middle of it, I called Whitney and I was like, oh my god, I think we're the chapter four is going to have a baby. And it was all about relationships. It was all about really that is so often whether it's who we want to be perceived as or what we imagine if we look a certain way, how people will experience us or respond to us or change how they experience us or respond to us. So it's been so powerful to think of the currency is really so often about connection, even though the measuring is in the body. 

A: Yeah, yeah, I absolutely agree. And, you know, to give some kind of examples from my own life about exactly what you're saying, like, I had the experience of going through early onset puberty at eight, but along with that came other kinds of health challenges, which I now, you know, understand were related to adverse childhood experiences and stress, you know, the level of cortisol in my body being elevated for, you know, long periods of time, and it just not getting addressed, you know. And so I went from, you know, around five, six years old, I was this cute little girl and everybody was like, oh, you're so beautiful. 

You're so, you know, complimenting me on my hair. And, you know, especially my dad, you know, was very adoring of me. And then I started having all these health issues. And I started gaining weight. And I started having this in my experience, it was like depression, like a somatic experience of feeling low all the time and lethargic. And my health was, you know, deteriorating. And that was, it was manifesting in my physical body. And so I went from everybody praising me and adoring me for being so beautiful to being like, ooh, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with, what's wrong with you? 

And why is this happening? You know, and it's like, I can intellectualize it as an adult and go, oh, it was just like my parents being concerned. You know, it was just my dad being worried about me because he didn't understand what was happening. 

Right. Like I would probably feel the same way if that started happening with my kid, you know, but the way it was being expressed at the time, I felt that is like something's wrong with me. You know, and then I started really associating all of the physical sensations, the sensations of suddenly having bosoms at eight years old, you know, the sensations of my hips widening and, and, you know, body fat in places that I know like didn't have body fat before all of the sensations were associated with shame and a feeling like there's something wrong with me. 

You know, and so that, you know, I think that's not like an uncommon experience for a lot of people at puberty, you know, but it happened to me like earlier than expected when my brain wasn't quite at the level to, you know, understand process much of it. And it was sort of unexpected also for my parents because they didn't expect to deal with any of that until, you know, I was like 12 or 13, you know. And so it's kind of the, it gives you kind of the way that you're talking about this as being connected to relationships. 

It was totally connected to like, you know, my value and my worth, you know, in relation to my father, aka men, you know, and one point, you know, I laugh about it now, but my mom made this comment when I was like 11, you know, because my health problems kind of continued from like eight to 11. And then at 11, things really shifted because we got a doctor who would actually run tests and find out what was wrong with me instead of just being like, Oh, she's a fat kid who needs to exercise more, right? 

That kind of stigma. So at 11, things really changed. But like right around that time, I was wearing like a middrift shirt, because I think even back then there was a part of me that was like, no, I'm going to be cute and lovable, even though I'm chunky, you know, totally. My mom was like, my mom was like, are you really wearing that out of the house? You look like Winnie the Pooh. Oh my gosh. And like, I mean, now I can kind of laugh about it because I think I probably did. And I'm like, but Winnie the Pooh is super cute and everybody loves Winnie the Pooh. 

D: And no one says Winnie get a bigger shirt or pull your shirt down. 

A: Right. But but at the time, I remember being very wounded by that and like angry and like hurt. And, you know, it did change that I wasn't willing to wear like a middrift, you know what I mean? I was much more self conscious about that. 

You know, at least I wasn't going to wear it around my mother for sure. So what you're saying about it being directly in some of our early experiences as children, and I think there's a lot more awareness about that, like people are realizing like, oh, maybe it's not the best idea to constantly tell little kids how beautiful and cute they are. And that's the only way that you're complimenting them or encouraging them, you know, maybe, maybe we should be talking about some other characteristics besides how they physically appear. 

D: Absolutely. And, you know, there's sort of this idea of the currency and families, right, whatever it means, maybe to have a certain body type or look or not look like, you know, ancestors or whatever it is, there's there's that aspect of it. And then there's also this idea that really is what chapter five became, which is when we're in relationship, even if it's they're not giving us messages about body image, what's happening in the relationship can still really become a way that or I'm sorry, the body image can be a way to try and manage what's happening in the relationships.

That this idea what I've used with clients over the years and then really we've tried to capitalize on the book is this idea of shape shifting, that when we get messages early in our lives mirrors about either what our parents need us or need us to be or not be based on what's happening with them, or, you know, how they see us like, oh, you're always so accommodating, you're also you're so easy or you're, you know, if you've got a sibling that's unwell, like how powerful that can be to get that kind of feedback like, oh, I'm going to be the easy one or I'm going to be the one they can always count on or if I get good grades and my mom won't be so depressed about my ill sibling or whatever it is. 

So all the ways that in as you as you described, like these really early experiences start to lay down this idea of, oh, how I am in relationship. Actually, I may have control over depending on how I tweak myself and that may start as sort of what we call emotional shape shifting and over time can often morph into more of this sort of physical experience, even if our parents weren't giving us a direct message, you need to be in a different body or you're too big or too tall or whatever it is. 

But just that idea of like, hey, if I'm a little different in this relationship, if I learn how to adapt, are there ways that that can kind of become an embodied experience? Because those things can become sort of coupled. So if I'm small, if I take up less space in the family, then everybody seems to be a little bit calmer. 

If I start to talk about the things that are about the fact that my parents aren't are fighting, that makes everything blow up. So how do we kind of learn to shape shift in our family system to keep it steady and how that over time can also be something we use our body to do in one way or another? 

A: Yeah, I'm kind of thinking about like eating what our parents or what our families kind of want us to eat, right? And that can go either direction with parents like, oh, you need to eat your vegetables or I know kids who don't want naturally don't want to eat meat and their parents kind of force them to eat meat because they need their protein. But then as we get older, maybe kind of less obvious how it's related to food because it might be like just going along with whatever our partner eats or whatever and then feeling not good about ourselves. 

D: We can shape shift and there's things about it. We all need to shape shift. And the movies we always talk about, they're sort of the superhero that all of a sudden the cape comes out and they can evolve in a way to really manage a certain situation. And we all need that, right? When the flight gets canceled or something really crummy, our car gets towed, we need to adapt. But what we also want to start to notice is when that becomes more of a pattern and a way to often keep our needs small or not really stay in touch with, which goes back to where you were talking about before, is our authentic selves. 

We actually use the image of a puzzle and we say, we're sort of born in a family puzzle and we may actually change our puzzle piece shape to kind of keep the family functioning in one way or the other. If I'm always really funny, then my mom won't be so depressed or if I'm always really accommodating to my dad when he's late home from work, then maybe he'll be more present. All these ways that we may do that and then again, how often that can become something about our body and the way that we are. 

Because again, it goes back to what you were saying earlier too, that when something feels crummy, the body is accessible and it's a really easy way to start to try and manage what else might feel unmanageable. 

A: Yeah, absolutely. And as you mentioned, change your embodied experience, right? Because we discover early on like, oh, I can change how my body feels. I can do all these different things, like whether for many of us it was eating sweets, oh, I feel good when I do that. Or some people discover, oh, I can kind of get like a strange high from not eating. If I don't eat, I feel like that feels better because I have this nice empty feeling in my body. And especially if you've had digestive issues or like gut issues, sometimes people get that orthorexic thing where they just don't eat very much because it's empowering. 

Yes, absolutely. And then like, we can also learn how to manage ourselves within our relationship to get certain kinds of feelings or needs met. We discover, oh, if I need to feel better, I can offer myself up to my partner in this specific way, or do something for my mother, and I'll get that positive feedback. 

And so we're trying so much as I see you explaining through our body intelligence to get certain needs met, to find ways to feel, have an embodied difference of feeling some way in our body, whether it's like a feeling of being more powerful or being connected to another person or any number of things. Can you give us some examples of what you think people are, what are some of the typical things that people are trying to achieve through their body shifting? 

D: Yeah, yeah, great question. I mean, at its core, it's always about connection. But connection really is far before, again, we know what body image is. That is our primal drive. And that's been true since the dawn of a man and women. So even though we may not realize it, so often the drive is how will I connect with this person? 

How will this relationship stay intact? or as you said, maybe to get them more engaged or to feel more seen or understood. So, if I act a certain way, if I do certain things, will I have more of that connection? 

That really the drive at its core is how do I stay connected? And it may start in family of origin, but then it really obviously can play out, like you said, in all kinds of other relationships, romantic ones, and also just, could be our boss or our colleague. And what do we notice ways that we may not feel like we have the courage to ask for something or they might be really annoyed, all these different kind of micro moments where it's hard to trust that if we really are our own native shape, our natural shape that people are gonna meet us there. 

I mean, I was actually just in a great conversation with a client yesterday. I don't wanna summarize this well, but someone I've worked with for a long time, she's newly pregnant, maybe four months. So she's sort of in that stage where your body doesn't look like your body, but you don't really, no one knows you're pregnant yet, which is something that comes up a lot in my practice. 

And she was describing really grieving, not wearing certain clothes because she grew up as a much less sort of what she would describe as girly girl. And she's really found her sense of style in a sort of just more cash and a little bit, she's just got a certain look and it's less of that frilly look. And she was like, everything I see is all, all the clothes I see are these frilly, horrible dresses. 

That's not who I am. And she just kept saying, I wanna feel like me and I want my body to feel like me too. And it was so beautiful to hear the ways that we can, obviously we took it a lot further because that's the part of this work that's so exciting, it's really moving into, so what does it mean to be at this stage of pregnancy? What does it mean to be not knowing what's coming? 

And what does it mean to be not feeling like you? She's like, as a mom, can I still wear the cutoffs I was wearing when I wasn't a mom? And all these questions, excuse me about, sort of what these changes mean in terms of sense of connection to self too and connection to how you wanna be seen in the world as a certain kind of person. She isn't a frilly person and she doesn't wanna look like a frilly person, whatever that means to her. 

So really giving people the chance to really flesh that out and get curious about what it is that, we see this with clothing a lot, what it is that we want it to express about us or say about us and really again, going for that, like what does that mean? And in this case, it was more about her connection to herself, but it was really, then how will people see me and how can I be a mom in an authentic way? 

A: Right, right. And I can relate because there is that period of time when you are not quite fully showing and your body just becomes kind of like rectangular and like totally, you feel like a little bit like a refrigerator because you don't have the baby bump yet. 

D: Exactly, exactly. And so it often is likened to, I just look like someone who's gained weight and often that there's so much association with what that can mean and what does that say about you? And in a way you wanna tell people you're pregnant but you really don't. And even when I've had clients, I was saying to her, I had another client who didn't have that sort of typical baby bump body and she was clearly pregnant but didn't have, she called it, this other client called it, she didn't have like soul cycle pregnant body, like where it's just like, you're the same body with a little basketball right down there. 

And what does that mean? And what does that say about me as a parent and all these other things that can come up a way that we should be? So it really gives us a chance to understand, I mean, in this case, when really fleshing it out with my client was really an opportunity to figure out what are all these deeper feelings about being a mom, being at the stage of being a mom and who knows and doesn't, but also how do I be me? And something I've never done before. I mean, that was really at the core of what she was grappling with. 

A: Right, and that, just that question alone, I can imagine producing a certain, you know, frenetic energy in our physical body, like a nervousness, like a fearfulness. And then we're now looking for some kind of resolution and to feel differently in our body. And so it's, and now it's like, oh, I gotta go buy some new clothes. I gotta like somehow change how I'm being felt or perceived by others, right? 

D: Exactly. I mean, it was awesome. We had this whole conversation about these cutoffs and apparently they don't make them in bigger sizes anymore. So we ultimately got her to like, maybe I'll just buy the pants and then cut them and have someone tailor them. 

And I was like, great. Cause for her, those cutoffs are like her uniform and they really feel truly her. And so it was great to kind of both honor, wow, there's a lot underneath there. And for you to find things, you know, when you go to old Navy and all they have is frilly dresses, that's really good information that doesn't feel right to you. And figuring out how are you gonna feel more like you on all these levels and how to sort of honor how important that feels. Right. 

A: And also that this concept of you is kind of like one of those Russian nesting dolls that contains all of the former use, that contains all of that. 

D: Absolutely. And what it was like exactly as a kid for her feeling like she never had the right outfit and didn't wanna wear a dress for prom and all those things to sort of the story now. And why those shorts were so important and it felt like such an honor to me to be like, great, let's build out the shorts. This isn't about like, oh, just go find a dress. 

That doesn't get her anywhere. But to say what is happening with your, I was like, maybe there's some on eBay. I don't know, let's figure it out. Let's find this ways for this part of you to really be understood and supported. 

A: And nurtured, right? And nurtured. Find a way for you to feel that better that you wanna feel about it in a way that is, yeah, in a way that is actually loving and not self-destructive, you know? Or violent towards ourselves. 

D: Yeah, we talk a lot about alignment and really, that ultimately that's so much of what we hope for people in the book is this idea that rather than the body image is the villain and if I just change my body into what is really happening that's underneath all this body image struggle that is about me that I wanna understand more and find really resources that are gonna help me feel more aligned. 

So that might be the shorts. That might be a totally different experience. Joining a mom's group and feeling less alone in the stage of the process, but figuring out what are the parts of you that really are being tended to by a lot of this body criticism and then what do you really need? And figuring out how much of that is on the embodied experience. I wanna walk more even though I can't do the gym anymore or whatever it is, but also maybe being in more connection or doing more writing or whatever it might be. So really learning how to resource whatever parts are coming through and we start to translate in the body image language. Then what do we actually really need and how do we get it? 

A: Yeah, and it's a fine tuning practice as you've described before that it's an ongoing thing. And I think that we learn sometimes through trial and error we often have maybe patterns of behavior that are well-worn that we're used to. One way that I always tried to fix how I was feeling in my body was through very intense exercise, which I'm sure a lot of people can relate to, like, oh, I'm feeling fat, whatever that means. 

And so I'm gonna go do a really intense hot yoga class or I'm gonna go run very intensely or do something. And then because of my body being the way that it is, I've ended up injuring myself doing that because I'm kind of going too hard at it. I'm sort of overdoing it, overcompensating for the way that I'm feeling. 

I'm trying to make it change and force it to be different. And what I've discovered and had to learn is that, oh, yeah, I can do something. I can go move and exercise. And maybe part of that feeling fat thing that I am experiencing is more about my body asking me to move. Maybe I've spent too much time sitting over the last week. 

Maybe my lymph would like to get some stimulation, right? And there's a lot of ways to do that. It doesn't have to be an overreactive kind of response. I can go on a 15-minute walk and probably feel better. It's like we don't have to come in really heavy-handed with these things. There's so much play between the biggest, strongest, most extreme action you can take and just getting up and walking around your house and doing some light stretching, right? Absolutely. 

D: And I love that you brought that in because it kind of brings us back to the sensation piece, which is so many people have feelings about that statement. I feel fat. And we've talked so much about really this idea that fat isn't a feeling. 

Fat is an adjective just like blue-eyed or long-legged or whatever it might be, tall, short. But what it's become is that it's gotten coupled with sensations that really have a lot of potency to them. So it might be full of somethings, right? It might be too much of something. 

A: I think a lot of shame for many of us. Right, totally. Whether it's shame or fear or overwhelm or any of those things. So to get people to start to get curious about what kinds of sensations are happening in the body then helps us resource it better too. Like you were talking about that client who was in that kind of racy place. And even though we didn't land on the perfect shorts yet, for her to have the opportunity to be like, I feel racy about this because I feel afraid. How do I tend to that? 

D: How do I, you know, and sure we can get into concrete things like finding the shorts and getting them short, or pants and getting them shortened, but also like, wow, I'm feeling really scared. What does my body need? What parts of me need to be tended to or given some nurturance in one way or another. So, you know, I often find that when we go towards where the sensations in our body are that are feeling loud, it often is where the information is. So I love doing chapter six is decoding where we actually look at the words that people are describing their bodies and how often those words may actually be applied, may apply somewhere to the larger context of their life. And they may not even realize it. 

And it's super, super cool. Like I have a 40 and up group that I run and there was a woman in that group who talked about remembering when she was maybe eight or nine and she was talking about these genes where how did she describe it? It was like everything was the same. And what she was describing, I was like, well, what does that mean? And she was saying, you know, it's like there was no shape, right? Like she was just like top to bottom, all one shape. And she just kept saying everything was the same. And then I said, and what else was happening in your life at that time? 

And that was when her mom who was already quite mentally ill basically left the family and she ended up or left this, my client and this client had to move in with her dad and her mom really was unavailable to her from then on. So it was this huge change. So we talked so much about wanting everything to be the same, how what interesting language, even though she was talking about what she described as like her glory of Vanderbilt genes or something in the 80s was really about everything changing. 

And so really looking at the language to me feels really cool. And especially when we use, we give people handouts at the workshops where we give them lists of sensations so that they can be like, oh, that, that buzzing is what I feel in my butt. And I'm like, great, let's learn more about buzzing in your butt. That's really where it gets juicy because it's their story, their words, their body part. And we can really start to unpack that. 

A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it has me thinking a lot about the way that I, when my body exploded and I went through puberty like and all those, the wording that I might describe with that was like, I say things like exploded. 

D: That's cool. I think they're right. And if I can, if I'm really honest, like during that time, like while all that was happening, you know, like my mother was working night shift. She was living as a sleep deprived single mom for the most part. 

And like, I didn't really understand this as a kid, but looking back on it, if anybody's listening and they were raised by a parent who worked night shift, it's not that dissimilar if, you know, they didn't have good self-care habits of being raised by a parent who's like drinking or on drugs because your brain is really different when you're working night shift and when you're living in sleep deprivation, right? And so she was sometimes. 

Yeah, it's almost like being in fight or flight all the time. Yeah, she was ballistic sometimes when we would wake her up in the middle of the day and she would be totally sleep deprived for many days on end. And, you know, she would throw these tantrums that like she doesn't even, she didn't even remember later. She would be like, I don't remember that, you know? And so there would be these like explosive moments. 

And so that was like, my body was blowing up, right? And so, it's a great connection, exactly. And it's powerful. I mean, it's really, it's just, to me, it's sort of this miracle that happens that there's this way that we find, again, that body image is trying to save the day and offer us a way to understand something that feels impossible to understand or navigate. And so, you know, that's again why we think of it as really this gift, if we can, and really an opportunity to understand ourselves more, get more connected, learn more about what our body image is saying so that we can really take care of our body better and really be able to hear it more skillfully. 

A: Beautiful, yeah. So you do this work, I mean, obviously you work one-on-one, but you've also been doing groups. Can you talk a little bit about the value of showing up in a group and doing this together? 

D: Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's where the magic happens. I'd like to believe, you know, I bring the nuggets, but really I think I'm just continue to be blown away by what happens in a room full of, you know, most of our groups have been women, but that is changing over time. But really watching what happens when people start to talk, because what's so ironic about body image work is everybody, we all live in bodies, we all have feelings about them, and we don't have places to talk about it. 

So there's so much shame often about how we feel about ourselves, that it keeps us from talking about it, right? And so often in our cultures, it's sort of like, oh, let's talk about, we all ate too much over the holidays or whatever it is, that doesn't get us anywhere. So to watch in a room of people, what happens in people's faces when people are telling their stories, like the one you just told about exploding, like everybody can relate, everybody feels, you know, they'll just say, I feel less alone. 

Very few people have had the opportunity to talk about this in a way that feels productive or connected. So that's really the magic. And I remember in one of my groups when one of the women said something like, oh, I'm in a room full of shape shifters. Like we all shape shifted to stay connected in our family. 

Like that is a profound experience to feel like, people have had the same instinct to adapt in the same way, and then how that's played out in terms of their relationship with their body. It's just so beautiful to watch. There's so much healing that happens, especially because so often this happens in the dark. So having people really be in the light with it and share it with people and see what happens in people's faces in real time. 

So we do do some virtual workshops, but to me, I think the in-person ones are just the ones that are just the most magic because there's just so much healing and laughter. And that's one of the things I guess I should say too about Whitney and I is we didn't want this to feel gross. You know, we always joke that, you know, the workshops were not gonna make anybody like dance like a leaf or look in the mirror and pick their favorite body part. Like I think people are terrified to do this work. 

And when they realize that really a lot of it is really a lot of this curiosity and really unpacking your own story and unpacking how your body image is trying to help, people I think are less afraid to do it too because it doesn't feel so scary. 

A: Right, right. And then, you know, in these kind of group dynamics, you know, there must be people who get kind of triggered or do that mirroring, right? Or sometimes my, for example, I know this might be an interesting one to get your feedback on is like, things that we do to modify our bodies that could come from this place of wanting to shift our consciousness, right? 

And I personally don't like view things like, you know, when people get tattoos or they get plastic surgery or they get, you know, some kind of modification done to their body, I don't necessarily see it as like innately wrong. It's not like, oh, you shouldn't do that. You know, it means that you don't love yourself if you're getting a nose job or a facelift or whatever, right? 

But there are people who get very triggered by other people doing that because maybe it's something that they have wanted to do and they're like battling something in themselves that says that's not okay for them to do that or that that means that they're weak or, you know, I don't know the full story that each person who's getting triggered by this might have, right? But, you know, how do you handle that in a group if someone is kind of getting activated by someone else's choice about what they do with their body? 

D: Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I have to say, I don't feel like, I guess I would just say that curiosity is just our greatest tool. So if someone has a strong reaction, I guess my thought is, let's get curious about it. To your point, it may be secretly, they wanted to get, you know, a sleeve of tattoos and they were told not to or, you know, most of the time, just like jealousy, when we move towards it with curiosity, it's really about the person, right? So if they have strong feelings about, you know, I mean, there's so many folks, I think, in their 20s now doing things like Botox, people have a lot of feelings about that. 

And if they do, let's talk about it. I mean, it depends with these workshops, it's often a one day event. So we may not dig as far, but when I have my ongoing groups, we can really get into that in a deeper way. 

And again, really the opportunity to be more connected to yourself, like, wow, I have a lot of feelings about this. I grew up with a mom who, you know, got many facelifts or whatever it is. And so she was always distracted and always making comments about how old she looked or whatever. So, you know, I think there's always a story to be understood there. It's never really just sort of like pinging off each other. 

There's always more to understand. But in general, I'd say people are so compassionate about hearing other people's stories because they so long for that authenticity that I think there just is less of that sort of reactive nature to it. I remember in our last workshop, we had a woman share that she had literally gone to Fat Camp where literally they like lined them up and weighed them and just watching people's faces. 

It was like, I mean, I cry all the time at the workshops, but it was just, and these young women, this is a client of mine who's in her 60s. So like these young women just like, they're wanting to sort of like hug her and honor her as she's sort of telling this tale. It's just so amazing. It's really, it's just wild. So it's really more about everybody learning everybody else's body image story. That's really the way I think about it. 

A: Yeah, well, and if you're showing up in the container as kind of the curious witness, right? 

D: That also changes things. And really prompting that and other people. And sort of being like, oh, you're having strong feelings. I mean, again, just like when people talk about jealousy and they have this idea of some movie star, somebody they think is just totally the bomb. Great, let's talk about it. What's your fantasy and what's your fantasy of what living in that body is like? Because that's really what you want. 

A: What does it represent to you? 

D: What does it represent that you want to be experiencing? Dinner parties on the weekends and they cook lots of alfresco meals and whatever it is, right? It's like the butt gives you the body, it gives you the life. So the more we can sort of unpack that, it can actually be really fun to see what it's about and what really people want, which sort of is the butt, but it really isn't. It's really the life that goes with it. 

Yeah. And the feeling state that goes with it. It's so often about freedom or choice or connectedness. You know, it's rarely like, oh, then I will have this amount of money. And if it's about money, it's still gonna be about the felt experience, which goes back to the somatic, right? You know, to feel safe, to feel settled, to feel connected. 

A: Right, right. And the physical experience of, so many people have had like this phrase that I hear a lot with the somatic work that I do because I work with a lot of people who have tension and pain, you know, in their bodies, you know, that doesn't seem to go away with massage or chiropractic work and stuff like this. And so they'll often be sometimes talking about, I want to get back to myself when I was this age. When I was this, you know, I could move this way. I could do these things with my body. And I think that probably comes up a ton in what you're talking about too. 

Oh, I want to get back to that size six when I was 25. And it's like, okay, well, what does that represent? Exactly. Exactly. Because we don't go back. 

We actually get to be all of it and we get to move forward with all of it. But what is that, what is about that time that was so exciting or powerful or potent to you that you want to be recreating? 

D: And how did that feel in your body? Like, what did it feel like to be in your body at that time? And again, it's so often free, joyous, alive, you know, zesty, whatever, you know, really. 

A: Noticed by other people. 

D: Yeah, seen and mirrored well or, you know, admired totally, totally. And again, not to judge that because that probably comes with, again, an assumption about connection or it's not just like, oh, people really like me. It's people like me and I feel more connected. I feel more seen. I feel more like I belong. 

A: Right. And as you said, with the mirrors, it's very interesting because sometimes it's a little bit like which came first, right? We don't know exactly which one came first because I'm thinking to like, you know, I've had such this wide range of experiences, you know, of being the cute, precious little girl and then what's wrong with you? You have health issues and you're, you know, a fat kid. 

And then, and then when I, you know, after 11, when I got on thyroid medication and I totally shifted like my diet, you know, my face and everything shifted back to like the pretty little girl that I had been, you know, and I had like a couple of years of being much more visible. You know, boys were interested in me, you know, from the age of like 12 to, you know, 14, 15. And then there was a period of time where I kind of stopped taking care of myself because I wanted to be invisible again. 

You know what I mean? And so that being invisible stage where like I was, you know, not noticed by the world because I wasn't noticed for my beauty, you know, has been like a thing kind of theme that's come back at different times where like unconsciously I am creating, you know, a heavier body. I am creating like insulation from the world because there's safety there. You know, I want to feel like, you know, I'm not being, you know, judged and assessed. 

But if I am being judged and assessed, I want to know exactly what I'm being judged and assessed for, you know, because when we're in these states, like I, you know, was like running for the entire pandemic, you know, and I got very lean. I got this like runner's body for a few years, right? When I was running like five mile loops and all this stuff, right? And it was a really interesting experience because the world does treat you differently when you're petite and lean, right? Then when, you know, you're kind of average, you know, with hips and, you know, chest and that's- Curbs and yeah. 

Curbs, right? And there are times even that I found having a really curvy body, you know, and a big butt to be like scary sometimes because it's like, oh, I'm getting looked at by men. Whereas if I'm having like my small body, I can kind of like not be seen. So it's this kind of thing that's like seen or not seen and we can have different motivations at different times and our body is going to be shifting and shape shifting to accommodate that, right? 

D: Mm-hmm. And really figuring out, I mean, you know, I imagine maybe there were parts of you that the running was taking care of, right? Makes a lot of sense. That weren't just about movement, but we're about emotions and sensations and all of that. So again, the more you can sort of dig into those other layers, the more you can figure out what does this really mean for me right now? What is it that I want? What is it that I don't want? 

If I do this, then I will feel more or less of something. How are these things getting associated? And maybe you still want to do the things, but really recognizing, wow, this is offering me whatever. You know, at this time that makes so much sense. I mean, it's the other thing we talk about, like we talk about the muscles and one of the muscles is compassion, you know, which can be sort of, you know, it can feel sort of like bubble bathy and sort of a cliche, but the reality is to be able to say to ourselves, that makes so much sense you feel that way. 

That's a really powerful thing to say to ourselves. That makes so much sense you feel that way that you've tried on 20 pairs of pants before this date. That makes so much sense. You're scared. You want to get it right. 

You know, this has a, the stakes feel high. So, you know, the more we can do that for ourselves, I think there's something really beautiful about that too for these different chapters and these different microchapters within chapters. 

A: Yeah, and it all gets to create like wisdom over time, wisdom about being a person, being a human. We get to embody that wisdom as we go through kind of the, you know, processes you're talking about. 

And, you know, in my work, that's a big part of it. It's like, okay, there's these pain patterns. There's these injuries. There's these things that have happened. There's these past traumas. 

And as they are unintegrated, they just feel like ballistic and like confusing and fearful. And then as you start to process and connect with and validate and honor the experiences and the different ways that they show up, it starts to kind of integrate back into, you know, not stand out so much. It integrates back into like your whole self and it gets to become wisdom. It gets to become compassion for others, right? 

D: And for yourself. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, that's why when we talk about the muscles, it's really noticing what we call mindful awareness, curiosity, compassion. Those are our three muscles. Cause that's at the start of it all is the noticing, they're getting curious about it and then learning how to respond in new ways, which again, doesn't mean don't want the, you know, the outfit or the, you know, cream for the stretch marks, whatever, but more like, what feels right to me? You know, really starting to have more trust in that, that all that information is inside. 

A: Yeah, right. Cause it's the how. I mean, we could still be doing some of the same behaviors. We could eat a salad or, you know, rub our body in cream. But if we're doing it from this place of having already processed the, you know, fear or the anxiety that was driving us to that behavior, it's a much different experience than we're kind of trying to do this thing, but we're not really addressing, you know, the underlying issue, right? 

D: Right, exactly. And that's why resonance is like one of my favorite words is helping people be like, what does resonance feel like in your body? How do you feel about what kind of sensations do you have? I mean, it's so cool to start to think about like, our body really can say yes, if we learn how to listen. 

A: Fantastic, I love that. This has been such a beautiful conversation. Maybe you can tell people a bit about, you know, where they can pick up a copy of this book. Also maybe about like some of the, you know, if you have an online program or things that they can, resources that they can start tapping into this work. Cause it sounds like, I mean, I think a lot of my listeners are going to be really interested in this. 

D: Oh, thank you so much. I know this feels such a delight for me. I think the somatic stuff is just, it's such an opportunity for people, I think to be able to relate to themselves in some really important ways that we just haven't had access to before. 

So the book itself, but is body image inside out and you can get it wherever books are sold, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, all those good places. And then we are, we're actually in the process of planning our first clinician training. So we're really excited about that. So that'll be any sort of practitioners, body workers, nurses, doctors, therapists, nutritionists with doing that in the fall. And then we haven't picked a date yet, but we'll do another workshop, I'm sure, and as well as a virtual one. And I am starting a body image inside out group in my practice in Boston. 

And my guess is it will start in person, but we'll probably ultimately be sort of will alternate between in person and virtual. So our website is body image inside out.com. You can also find us on Instagram. Anything that we're doing, you know, we'll be up on Instagram, which again is body image inside out. 

And then my website is just devshaktorlicsw. So I'm in Boston, but as I said, we're really going to try and do more of the virtual stuff too. We've done a few and they've gone really well. So we're hoping to do more of those. We're just coming out of the book launch. 

So we're sort of pacing ourselves so our bodies can heal a bit. By the fall, we'll have some good, good programming going on. And one of the great things about the book is there's it's it's exercises. It's not just content. So it really gives people the chance to have the experience of being in the workshops on their own, but in company and sort of knowing their people doing it, hopefully all over the world. That same practice. 

A: So yeah, beautiful. Well, this is just I think it's a movement. It sounds like it's a revolution of how to work with our body image that blends and combines, you know, some of the things that I liked about body, you know, positivity, you know, some of the things that I think are even there with like body neutrality. But maybe we can close with, you know, before we started recording, you said that one of the things that's not quite neutral about it, is that it's interesting to start looking and going towards those negative self image things that are coming up. 

So maybe you can say a little bit about that, you know, to someone who might be listening, who's plagued by negative self talk, negative image, you know, of themselves throughout the day. What's the medicine there? What's the power there if they're able to lean towards it? 

D: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the metaphor I was using, I'm not a big car person, but I was thinking about like the indicator light coming on, you know, that if something's getting loud, if the, you know, that your body image parts are yelling in your ear with a microphone, that means there's something up and really getting into that practice of moving away from jumping on that rotary, going round and round, fantasizing about what what fixed strategy you're going to do, or just a self hating kind of loop is moving towards that curiosity. Why now? What's happening now? 

And so it really gives you the chance again to see the negative body image as a portal to you and a portal to some some sort of pain or suffering that's happening. So you don't want to miss out on that. So it's not that we don't love thinking about, you know, speaking well of our bodies and appreciating all the things they do and all the, you know, the ways that sometimes being more neutral and curious can be so helpful. And also really seeing that the negativity is it's a zing. It's telling us there's something to look into further. So really seeing it as an opportunity. Beautiful, beautifully said. 

A: Thank you so much for coming on today. This has been an amazing, insightful conversation. I appreciate so much what you're doing. And yeah, check out all the links for the listeners. 

Check out all the links in the show notes, connect with Deb and, you know, through their social media, check out the book. And yeah, love to hear about more about what you're doing in the future. 

D: Thank you. And thank you so much, Aimee. This is a total delight for me, too. 

A: Awesome. 

A: Hey, there, friends. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. I would love to hear your thoughts. Follow me on Instagram @AimeeTakaya and send me a DM about this episode. I'd like to thank you for being part of this Somatic Revolution. 

And if you'd like to support the podcast and help more people learn about somatics, consider leaving a review or a rating. And finally, if you'd like to have the experience of relief in your tight hips or back and learn to understand what your body is really saying to you, visit YouCanFreeYourSoma.com. I can't wait to share with you what is truly possible. Bye for now.