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New Episode! EP 42 - Building Your Capacity For Intimacy Through Self-Connection with Dr. Don St. Jo

Trauma, the little ones and the big ones cause disconnection within yourself. This effects your capacity for human connection. And the most direct way to increase it, is through somatic techniques that build back those connections. This allows for intimacy to be truly FELT. Don St. John has been building his capacity for self-connection for decades. After a very difficult childhood, he lived as a hungry ghost until he realized that something needed to shift and it needed to shift, within him.

In this incredibly insightful and touching interview we explore -What is SOMA and what is somatic philoshophy? -What do Hanna Somatics and other somatic body-based practices offer? -How do we build healthy, connective bonds with others? -What are some of the ways culture challenges our self-connection? -Can intimacy and pleasure with your partner INCREASE with age? -Busting the myth of aging! And so much more! Dr. Don St John, a psychotherapist, teacher, author, and Mestre who has been immersed in the psychological, somatic, relational, and spiritual worlds for more than fifty years. Very early on in his educational career, Dr. St John realized that the “box” of traditional clinical psychology and psychiatry was too small to hold all the tools and concepts needed for his healing.

He’s forever grateful he searched outside that box. Over time, he encountered not just tools and techniques, but different schools of thought, both novel and derived from wide-ranging sources.

Decades of exploration led him to construct a view of healing, purpose and human potential that includes four essential and interrelated components: the Somatic (Body), the Psycho-Emotional, the Relational, and the Spiritual.

He is the author of Healing the Wounds of Childhood and Culture An Adventure of a Lifetime

Connect with him on his :

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Every day there is a forgetting and every moment there is the possibility of remembering. Remembering who you truly are, awakening to your body, to the inner world and experience of being alive. Here is where you find the beauty, the joy. Today here is where you free your Soma. Hello everyone and welcome to Free Your Soma, Stories of Sematic Awakening and How to Live from the Inside Out. I have a very special guest with me today, Don St. John, a psychotherapist, somatic educator, a continuum teacher and the author of Healing the Wounds of Childhood and Culture and Adventure of a Lifetime. Today we are going to talk about what is Soma, answer that question, right? We are also going to look at how somatics relate to our capacity for relationships in our lives and probably so much more. Thank you so much for being here, Don.

My pleasure. Looking forward to talking to you.

Absolutely. You You we just realized, you just told me right before we started the show that you are also a trained Hannah somatic educator and that you actually trained with Thomas Hannah at his first training, well, the only training that he did. And I'm just delighted by that information. I didn't know that when we booked this interview and it just feel a kinship. It's just so wonderful to know that. Yeah, wonderful. Tell us a little bit about, you know, that you did that training 33 years ago. You also had previously done some other somatic trainings and then you've been cultivating a whole body of work now at this point. Tell us a little bit about the work that you do.

Okay, well, let me back that up to where I started. I had a great deal of trauma in my early history, a lot of emotional and physical abuse in my childhood. And I realized when I was about 19, 20 years old that I needed help. And the only thing I knew about was, you know, psychiatry. So I found a psychiatrist in the Yellow Pages and began seeing him. And it began a process that I now call a journey of a lifetime, a process of healing because one of the things that abuse does or trauma of any form is that it disconnects us from ourselves. And I realized somewhere along the way that I had to work with my body as well as my psyche. And so I began an exploration. I got Rolf, then I studied structural integration, the Hellerwerk structural integration approach. And, you know, that's when I came upon Tom Hanna and his work. And I was fascinated by his theory because his theory is so profound. He's the person who brought the word somatic into our culture. And he made it a very, very important distinction between the body, you know, as a third person object, the body, the shoulder, the rib cage. And he said, we don't experience that. We don't experience the shoulder. We experience sensations. There's an inner experience. And he also said that there's, you know, libraries filled with books about the body. But very, very little is known about the experiencing body from the inside. And, you know, it's interesting because his writings were so sublime. And he was a philosopher. That was his original profession. He was chairman of the department of philosophy at the University of Florida in Gainesville. And his philosophy is what brought him to working with people in the body. But what he specialized with in his private practice was pain relief. And he developed some amazing techniques to heal pain. But his theory can take us so far beyond pain relief. It can take us to the transcendent because I have yet to find the limits of the connection to my body. And in my continuum practice where, you know, I'm linking my attention to various places in my body and going deeper and deeper over a period of years and years, I've had some transcendent experiences. The feeling that I'm not this separate entity in the world that somehow there's a greater connection among all of us. So, you know, Tom's theories are just profound.

Yes. And they're experiential. You can can about it. But But way that my clients best receive his message is through physically practicing these little movements that seem, you know, at first glance rather inconsequential or maybe just as something that your physical therapist might give you to reduce your pain. But in the regular practicing of these movements, you're building these neural pathways. You're building this capacity to actually be in and experience your living body. And that is what you're, you know, as you're describing, can become so transcendent and so deeply valuable as you really meet a new version of yourself in that process.

Exactly. That's so well said, Amy, that, you know, it's in the experience that you find yourself. You find a bigger sense of yourself. And it's in that experience that you begin to realize that even your ability to relate to another human being is highly influenced by our ability to connect with ourselves in a somatic way in that sense that we've been talking about.

Yes. And would you say a little bit more about, you know, you've written this book, Healing the Wounds of Childhood, you have done obviously a lot of that work yourself through various, you know, various modalities through different ways. And how does that, if we have a wound in our childhood that is unresolved and we're not utilizing somatic tools, maybe we're going maybe the more traditional route with psychotherapy and not utilizing our soma, you know, what does that do to our capacity for relationships if we're not able to clear it fully in our soma?

One of the consequences of trauma and trauma isn't only the big T trauma where someone is overwhelmed by some kind of catastrophic experience like an auto accident or being in a war zone or being mugged, something like that. But the trauma, for example, of being criticized all the time throughout your childhood or having a parent who doesn't have the ability to relate and to see you there, they may be anxious, they may be depressed, they may not have received much nurturance in their lives and therefore limited in their capacity, those kinds of things. Another example, parents who don't like each other, you know, living in an environment where one's parents don't like each other, that is traumatic. You know, it hurts, it's not safe. And so one of the consequences across the board, regardless of what type of trauma it is, okay, is we become disconnected from our soma, from our living body, our capacity to connect deeply with ourselves, to be present, to be alive, to be vibrant, to be strong and tender, okay, gets compromised. And, you know, psychotherapy, traditional therapy can do a lot of good, no question about it. And in my opinion and definitely in my experience, you know, the soma must be addressed. We have to, it helps so much to have a somatic practice. You know, whether that's continuum, whether it's Hannah somatic education, whether it's Feldingchrist, to have a practice that over time connects us more and more deeply. And it's integrative too, because another consequence of traumatic experiences, we get fragmented. Parts get disconnected from other parts, both in the soma and in the personality.

Yes, I can relate to that. I I I've been on my own healing journey for a long time. And I appreciate what you said about, you know, the little traumas, the lower T traumas that we don't recognize, because, you know, there, I feel like people are talking more openly about trauma in, I guess, a less charged way than maybe the word used to be, you know, the associations with the word used to be. But I still think that it can have like a lot of charge, you know. And so, if I'm, you know, talking with a potential client, and, you know, I don't want to outright ask them, do you have trauma if they're not bringing it up, you know, but I can ask other questions and I can ask, you know, and use phrases like, you know, what kind of condition was your environment growing up, right? And And can give us some clues, because some people aren't going to register the things they experienced as traumatic experiences, even though neurophysiologically, that's what occurred, you know, and that they're living with the consequences of that.

That's so, so true. I can tell you how many times a patient will come into my office and be perplexed by the anxiety that they experience or the relationship distress that they experience. And then they tell me they had a pretty normal childhood. And within 10 minutes, they're telling me, well, you know, my mother was depressed for the first three years of my life. And then they, my mother and father started fighting when I was five, they divorced when I was nine, I mean, you know, they go on and on with this list of experiences that are hurtful, really hurtful. And so many people just, you know, don't believe that those experiences imprinted in their souls.

Yeah, so much. It's a hard thing to swallow, because you, at first, you you our minds might jump to this kind of idea of some sort of permanency, that now that this happened, like, I'm something's wrong with me, or I'm tainted, or there's some, you know, there's some wound in me. And the idea of that alone feels insurmountable to some of us, you know, like, I've experienced that at different times, you know, but it's, it's the continued connection that you get through, like you said, day in day out, practicing of building those connective spaces once again, in our bodies that we come to the reality that we're plastic, and we can shift and change and evolve quite quickly, considering the damage that can be done. You speak of this so articulately. I I listening to you. Thank you. I've lived it. Here's what I've concluded about that. And it's one, we have all been traumatized to some degree or other.

It's a matter of style, form, and degree. That's it. Every one of us, that's my firm belief at this point. And, and we're here on this earth to heal, meaning to become whole, to become fully ourselves. Okay. And that, that's what I called a journey of a lifetime, because see, people think in terms of becoming normal. And that's the last thing I ask people to aim for, to be normal. That means you're highly likely to have a chronic disease by age 70, and or suffer from depression, addiction, relationship distress, anxiety, you know, that normal. Right. Well, if you had a normal childhood, you're going to end up with all of those normal normal. Exactly.

And, you know, we don't want to be normal necessarily. We're like, our potential is so much more than that. It's tremendous. It's endless.

Exactly. We're thinking right along the same lines.

You You going back to what you just said, though, with the way that, you know, somatics can impact and shift the way that your physical body is aging. I would love to hear you say a little bit about that, because you're further down the road in that project than I am, in terms of being someone who's been practicing this for decades.

Yeah, I'm 80 years old. And not only that, I inherited my grandmother and my mother's genes. By the time each of them was 60, they could barely walk. The arthritis was almost crippling. And I've got it. You You I have severe arthritis in my knee, in my lower back, moderately severe in my wrists and fingers and shoulders. And next month, I'm teaching a continuum class, fluid movement for a bunch of 40 year olds. I'm going to teach them how to move fluidly. So, you know, had I not gone on the somatic trail, oh, I would have been maybe not alive to be serious. But certainly, I wouldn't have had the mobility that I have now. And often, often, very good feeling, just being alive in this body. Not always. Not Not But But true. It's true right there. It's not always, but we can develop a new baseline of feeling good. And that's, I think, what you're pointing to is that baseline, generally feeling pretty good. Once again, I'm impressed by how articulate you are on this topic.

Yeah, my whole podcast is about this, and I've got a very engaging participant. So, it's all good, you know? I think it's great that, you know, you have arthritis and you have the genetics for arthritis. And And because of the tools that you have, and the way that you know how to work with your nervous system, that doesn't have to be like, prevent you from functioning, right? And a times, I I people think like that these modalities or these tools, they're supposed to prevent us from ever having problems, from ever even getting arthritis, from ever even developing an issue. But that's not the case. The case is that we may develop issues, but when we have tools, like somatics, we can navigate those issues and those challenges with more grace. And that is what we're seeking is more grace in whatever life is going to throw at us. Exactly. To carry our cross with grace and dignity and elegance. Excellent. Can you say a little bit more about that grace and elegance, the way that somatics going back to relationships and relating to another person, you know? And we relate to people all the time, but let's take, for example, some of our closest relationships, whether that's like the relationship with our spouse or our children, you you in the ways that somatics allows or makes us capable of experiencing ourselves fully, what are some of the ways that when you're practicing somatics, our relationships are the way that we're relating to others' shifts? Can you describe some of that?

Yeah, I can describe one very, very important dimension of that. And And in a marriage or in a primary relationship, you know, as we age, it's normal for our sexuality to diminish, to not have the same kind of sexual energy that we have in our 20s, 30s, even in our 40s. But what I call arrows, the capacity for relationship, for contact, for connection, and increase with age. And so pleasure and connection, which are two of the three, third being reproduction, but pleasure and connection don't have to decrease with age. Now, the culture doesn't teach us that, you know, the culture tells you to take pills and, you know, and these other aids, and they have their place, for sure. But the culture doesn't teach us that if we continue to enliven our somas, if we continue to connect more deeply with ourselves, our capacity to interact with another human being, you you our capacity for pleasure and our capacity for closeness can continue to increase. And that's a radical concept, as far as I know.

Absolutely. I think that a lot of people associate aging with a decline of various kinds, including a decline possibly of their relationships. You know, it's maybe this pleasant dream that many people have to grow old with someone, but, you know, with the divorce rate and how often people are separating from each other, you know, or letting go of relationships in this world and our culture, it's not often that we're sticking it through to a point where we're getting to see how that is changing and evolving over time.

Yeah, either that or we just get comfortable, you know, being old together. The expectations diminish greatly. You know, we accept that those days are behind us, you know, and live as roommates, live as friends. And that's fine too. I mean, I'm not putting that down because that can be very, very important, you know, to have a companion as you get older. And doing one of these practices, somatic, anasomatics, continuum, folding price, practicing can keep that capacity vibrant. And that's kind of cool.

Yeah, yeah. And the way that it relates to pleasure, you know, what you said is interesting because I think that we hear a lot about people saying, you know, oh, happiness, it comes from the inside, right? There's this concept of that. It's also something that comes from within that is generated internally, right? Even if there's a relationship between some external stimulation of some kind from our environment, it's something that we can either have the capacity to experience or we can be numbed and we do not have much capacity to experience pleasure. And And say to someone, oh, your pleasure comes from inside you, rather than that thing out there that you're reaching for, you know, that delicious food or, you know, that alcohol or whatever it is, that beautiful person, that relationship, to recognize and take ownership of, oh, these things do have an impact on me, but my capacity to enjoy them, to actually be present and engage with them is something generated inside of me.

Right. And it's generated from that connection you have to yourself. Because if that's not there, it's, you know, it's virtually impossible to have it come from you to someone or something else. When it's there, I mean, you look at a tree and you can have this moment, you know, with the beauty of a tree that can be, oh, you know, just that moment, literally a nanosecond where that appreciation is felt. We're talking about a felt sense. And that felt sense, no matter how it is in this moment in time. And I think this can be one of the most important takeaways for your listeners that no matter how it is right now in this moment, it can evolve. It can continue to evolve.

That, yes. That is so, so very true. There's been such an evolution in me as you're describing. You know, I find it's fascinating with these podcast interviews because I get the, you know, interaction and it stimulates memories and thoughts and feelings. I go, oh, I remember that time. I remember those times in my life and I'm sure there's people who are listening who can relate where I was melancholy and nothing was bringing me any joy. Right. It was something that was dimmed inside of me. There were experiences or things that I had gone through that were unprocessed, you know, that were that were painful. And so I had turned away, you know, the term dissociation is becoming more known now, but just this turning away from myself. And in that turning away and that refusing to feel these uncomfortable, painful things, I turned my feeling off to the beautiful things in my life too, to my, to my relationship with my partner or, you know, to the joys of living and then, you know, then you're like a hungry ghost and you're chasing, you're chasing some good feeling that you can never really attain because there's a, because there's a fragmentation, you know, as you referred to earlier.

That was the story of my early life in my late, late teens and twenties. A hungry ghost chasing what I could never attain. And it wasn't pretty either was pretty. It was intense. It was, you know, there were a lot, there are a lot of diagnostic categories I can use to label myself in those years complex PTSD, probably the, the most fitting of the diagnostic categories and, you know, that refers to a rather severe disconnection for my for my for I didn't I I didn't know, Amy. I mean, this is from my heart. I didn't know what a human connection felt like until I was in my early thirties and it was little mind blowing. Wow. What just happened? Yeah. And that was the beginning. And now it's the basis of my work is deep emotional connection and fluid movement.

Yeah. Well, and it's amazing to realize that the two are connected, you know, our ability to move through our bodies is, is directly related to our ability to move in our relationships to, to sense and know where we begin and the other, like, you know, where we end and the other begins at the very least, yes. Right. Yeah. And if we don't know where the boundaries are, it can create all kinds of misunderstandings and difficulties in our relating to other people. Yeah. Yeah.

My, my model that I use. And I write about this a lot in my book is a state in which individual freedom and partner cohesion togetherness are both maximized. Now that sounds paradoxical. It sounds like a contradiction. How can you have real closeness and real freedom and independence. You see, but if you think about it, you can get out of balance and either one of those directions. So it's a kind of back and forth flow, you know, like a wave going one way and then going the other way. But if you have all freedom and no closeness, well, you're in parallel play, you're living separate lives. If you have all closeness without freedom, then you're in a co dependent relationship where those boundaries that you refer to or blurred and you're, you know, kind of glued and stuck. And we all lean one way or another, but ideally there's this flow that kind of contains both.

I love that I think that's beautiful the dynamic living relationship rather than stuck in a fixed pattern. It appears to not change. Right. Even in our fixed patterns, there are subtle shifts and changes, right. But often we don't see them because they're they feel too small. So we're not noticing that we just think that this is how it always is, you know, he never does that, you know, we have these even our language will expose it and show us that, you know, this is how we're perceiving reality, but reality is much different than that. Reality is full of all of this movement all the time, you know, movement is one of the basis of our material world, you know, and so why wouldn't it have a dramatic impact on our relationships the way we're physically moving in our bodies.

Yes. And, and right along with that is, if we're fluid in our bodies, if we're connected to and fluid in our bodies, we can flow with the movement, rather than try fighting it all the time and try to hold on to a fixed position of fixed perspective. Yes. We have freedom. We have freedom. Yeah, exactly. That's what this is about freedom.

Totally. I mean, I had a client ask me one time and I thought this was such a fascinating question to answer because, like, I thought, for a moment I was thinking in my old persona as a yoga teacher and there was an answer that I had based on my yoga teacher past life, right. And then the hand somatic educator in me was like, no, no, uh-huh. That guy asked me, what is the right way to sit? Like, what is the right way? How should I be sitting? You know, because I'm sitting. So how should, how is the right way to sit? And I asked him, I said, do you want to hear something kind of radical? What if there is no right way to sit? What if there is only how you are sitting in that moment in direct relationship to what you're experiencing? And that that would be the way to sit. If you're tired and you had a long day, maybe you're slumping a bit in your chair. Yeah. You know, if you're, if you're excited and you're really paying attention, maybe you're sitting up straight. You know, there might be all kinds of shifting and changing that would occur. You know, it's only when we become so fixed in our muscular state that that movement and that fluidity become uncomfortable or impossible. Exactly. Good answer you gave him. He liked it. He did agree that he thought it was radical because I think he was expecting me to say something about alignment or, you know, his body and yeah, it's just, it's such a paradigm shift from the way that I used to operate in my thinking, which was a very rigid, you know, in my approach to looking at the body, right? Versus looking at this dynamic process that's going on?

Well, you know, if we're really engaged in this somatic awakening, then our perspectives will change over time. Okay, because we'll have new information, new insights, new conditions. If we attempt to, you know, hold on to what we learned 40 years ago, you know, then things get rough.

Yeah, it's outdated and we need a system upgrade to actually.

We definitely need upgrades from time to time.

Yeah. Yeah. And so say a little bit about, you know, you talked somewhat about your book with Healing the Wounds of Childhood, when this title, Culture, an Adventure of a Lifetime. So you're really, I'm assuming maybe you can tell me in this book, are you exploring the relationships of our culture to our Soma?

Yeah, I, you know, I reached a point where I realized that, as I said earlier, it's impossible to not be wounded in many ways. And our culture does a pretty good job. I mean, we are so production, consumer, achievement oriented, you know, that. That no matter we're going to be wounded and we're going to be wounded as I've written in three fundamental areas. One, maybe most important is the area of our connections. Starting with ourselves, starting with our living body, right? And our depth, our own psyche, our unconscious to, you know, to connect more and more with who we are. It's not supported by the culture. The abilities and the possibilities of really connecting with another human being. You know, I'm sitting here, I'm looking at your face. It's so open and so lovely. I'm feeling this kind of love, just looking at you, you know, and it's like, yeah, there's an image there on my screen. That can evoke it if one is open enough. So connections, love moments, you know, that the culture doesn't support. Another area is the area of responsibility, responsibility. You know that no matter the conditions that are handed to me, I was handed some very tough conditions. I'm not going to detail them. I wrote about them, but, you know, suffice to say they were, you know, probably up in the upper 10% of challenging childhoods. But I came to realize that I'm the author of my life story. Yes, that's what I was dealt. Those were the effects. And I could change it all, including the story itself. That's a powerful position. You know, that says no matter what comes. You know, I have a response ability, the ability to respond. I'm the one who's going to make the meaning of those situations. Victor Frankel, you know, who wrote the classic book Man in Search of Meaning was in a concentration camp during the Holocaust. His family, his wife, his family were killed. His work, his books were destroyed. And what he was left with was a realization that they could not take away his capacity to make meaning of it all, to choose meaning. And he, you know, spent the next 50 years, I had the privilege of being in a large seminar with him. He was an old man, and he was teaching and he was teaching off of that same insight. He had the power that no one could take away, the power to make meaning in his life.

And it's a power that most of the time we're unconscious to what we're, you know, how it's manifesting until we have that realization until there's that breaking through moment where we're ready to, well, maybe we're not even ready. Maybe we're just called into taking that responsibility and deciding to contend with it and work with it and have it evolve over time. Because, you know, I think most of it is, it's conditioned and we don't realize what's happening until there's ramifications, until there's disaster, right?

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the culture is obsessed with who should we blame? Something happens. Who should we blame? You know? And blaming is part of that sense, it's a sense of victimization. When we become victims, I could have spent my whole life blaming my parents for my traumas. And, you know, I'd have been stuck. I would have been anything but free. Instead, by the grace of God and some wise choices on my part, I got on this journey and this journey that leads to just a overall better and better life.

Yes. You know, I was curious, you know, as someone who's been doing this work a long time, you know, and I've had a number of situations like this where, you know, there's someone who comes and they want to, they say they want to be in their body. They say, oh, you know, I always want to relax. You know, I want to, I want these things. But then when the actual experience occurs, and I'm now realizing what I'm describing to you as something I went through myself, when you actually become relaxed, when you actually become connected, it can be very uncomfortable or painful at first to be listening to something you've been ignoring yourself, to take that responsibility.

Absolutely. It can. And, you know, I don't want to make light of that because it really can be difficult. And, you know, I don't know if it can be done without support, without somebody being there. You know, it makes all the difference in the world if there's someone who can hold your hand, someone you can lean up against a little bit as you're making these changes and, you know, there's a lot of self forgiveness. That's necessary. A lot of forgiveness of others that's necessary. There's a lot of letting go that's necessary. And, you know, all that can be quite painful.

Yeah, yeah. I think that, you know, when someone's going through that I can really see myself in them because even with just the amount of physical pain that I was in at 25 years old, I didn't want to lay down and feel into my body like while I was in pain, like, I thought I wanted that I, you know, I was a yoga teacher, I thought I was body aware. But then when I would actually lay down to try these little somatic movements, it was like, oh, this is really uncomfortable. And I did need that guidance, you know, I really did need that support, you know, and it was very therapeutic that I got to receive it from my father. I think it's an extraordinary thing that he had at this point done enough healing work in himself to be able to to offer that to me to be able to hold that space for me, you know, and I'm so incredibly grateful for that. It's an extraordinary experience for me to get to have and for him to get to have, you know, and when I am with someone who is struggling in that way. I feel like I totally understand I can I can understand deeply how that feels and what that's like for them, you know, and that, you know, as a panosomatic educator, I can be with them in these subtler ways, we can make it less intense, we can make it smaller and more gentle, we don't have to go into that uncomfortable place directly, we can go indirectly, you know, we can go by way of your foot or your toes.

Mm hmm. And that crisis is so extraordinary, so extraordinary, so extraordinary, so boy, that is, it's significant, it's beautiful, it should be celebrated. Just wonderful. And, yeah, and the second thing is what you describe that you give to your clients that understanding that you can understand what they go through. That's a gift. That's a gift that you're passing on. And that spreads and that's wonderful.

Yeah, I mean, I, at different times I have looked back and gone, oh, why did I have to go through so much pain. Why did I have to suffer so much why did I, you know, and then the answer comes in so that I know what it's like, so that I really know what that's like. And when someone is coming to me with that, you know, and they're tangled up in it, I'm on the other side of it, but I know what that is like, I have full compassion for that position. That's the gift. Yeah. That's the gift. Of the harm, harm time, the time of great harm had this gift, you know, that as you said keeps on giving to others and I, I see and I feel very clearly that that is exactly what you bring into your work as well you bring deep understanding of the pain that life can bring. Thank you, yeah. Yeah, well it's been absolutely wonderful to chat with you do you have any, you know, further thoughts that you'd like to share with our audience, kind of some things that are coming in here.

Well, we've covered so much in this hour here that there's nothing that pops into my head at the moment other than to just encourage people to see this path this path of awakening as really a, a journey. And adventure, you know, like any adventure, you're going to go backpacking and you know if you've done it more than once, or even just once you know you're going to encounter challenges. You're going to encounter the unexpected, much of which may be wonderful. Some of it may be tough and grinding and muddy and, you know, and it's going to be awesome when you get to the top of the mountain and you're looking out and the vistas and the views. It's an adventure. And it and but but with one difference from the metaphor that I just used. And and that is, as far as I know, there's no end, you can just continue and keep going so there's that and buy my book, read my book. Totally where can they find your book. Amazon, Amazon, they can find it on my website. Yeah, but Amazon is generally the easiest to clicks and it's on its way you know healing the wounds of childhood and culture and adventure of a lifetime. Fantastic if someone wants to connect with you or reach out where can they find you. On my website. There's a link that will send me an email. And will you publish the website for your folks. In the show notes, it'll be right there sometimes just give people something they can listen to so they register it rather than having to know that they go look for it.

Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Yeah, well it's such a pleasure I you know I feel akin to you as I said before and this conversation has taken me even deeper I'm feeling very full of love right now and I know I generated some of that but it's also this conversation this relating to each other that generated that and you get to share it with the rest of our listeners.

Great. Yeah, I feel it too. Great.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

You're so welcome.

Hello everyone. Thank you for listening to the free your so much podcast. If you enjoyed this interview with Amanda and feel inspired to learn more about the radiance program. Please go to www.freeyoursohma .com. The next round starts November 4th. Podcast listeners will receive $500 off of the six month program. I'm so excited to see you blossom and shine as the so much of the being that you truly are so much love to you.

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